Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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One assumes that the em res goes from 60% to 80%. In reality, this is closer to 84-85% for those with EANMII's and a good damage control.

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Only if you use 3 EAN2 and 1 DC. Which would be the equivalent of 4 harderners, not 3.

2 EAN2 + 1 DC give you - with maxxed skills and the best named DC - 49.5% resistance to all.

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Originally by: Powder Monkey

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They don't give a sh. so you'll be better off wasting your time losing apocs and geddons

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Originally by: Nyxus

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Originally by: Tuiwuz

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Truning pvp into a "who can fit most plates" competition is not balance.

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No, but low slots need more tangible benefits than they do now. There also needs to be slight adjustments to balance out extenders and plates. Battles need to be longer still, and so tanking through HP needs to be encouraged since tanking through resists can be extremely problematic with the current implementation.

Boosting plates and extenders provide a good solution to these problems. While they may effect all ships, they effect Amarr the most as we have more lows as the "armor tanking" race. The Raven avoids these issues currently by simply using ECM, but hopefully that won't last forever.

Plates, and through it tanking and Amarr especially, need some love. Longer fights 4tw.

Nyxus

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Originally by: Stephar

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Edited by: Stephar on 07/08/2006 11:23:25
Hmm, was just doing a side-by-side comparison of Amarrian & Caldari ships. Our Punisher > Maller > Prophecy > ______ line is almost identical to their Merlin > Moa > Ferox > Rokh line. Caldari get a shield resist bonus, Amarr get one to armor. The Caldari +10% optimal bonus could be called a "hidden" damage bonus (can use higher damage ammo at longer ranges), and Amarr know all about "hidden" damage bonuses. Really the main difference is the Caldari line is complete, while the Amarr line only runs up through the battlecruiser level. Score: Caldari 1, Amarr 0.

Hybrids, like lasers, can only do two damage types. Lasers do EM/thermal, Caldari do kinetic/thermal. Not much of a contest here. Caldari 2, Amarr 0.

And that is just a comparison of our primary gunboats. Isn't that our bread & butter? The combination of tanking and ganking? I was a bit surprised to see that the Caldari gunboats may in fact be superior to the Amarrian versions. Keep in mind that I haven't even mentioned some of the other ships like the Raven, Scorpion, Cerberus, Crow, etc.

Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw.

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Originally by: Lickity Split

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Its 7:16am cst on monday august 7th and still no response from devs on what i think is the longest thread in eve ever. Is it the longest? if it isnt i dont remember a longer one.

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Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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Originally by: Morkus Rex

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Originally by: Stephar

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Looks like you'd have to be insane to train up Amarr at this stage in the game. Does anyone have any experience with the Merlin/Moa/Ferox series, and how they compare in comparison to the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy line? I've been pondering whether or not to switch over to Caldari, and this may be my final straw.

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Most use the Ferox as a missile ship, and is an great ship... even with my bad missile skills. The new Caldari BC will be awesome!!
I'm only 1 step from starting training Caldari BS

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Rail ferox is actualy better for NPC imo. You can still mount the same passive tank (just use pds instead of spr) like a missile ferox (just needs AWU 3 :-))

It has the added benefit of 2 free missile slots, where I use rocket launchers and defenders/rockets to shoot down incomming large missiles or frigs.

I cannot compare to Amarr ships, as I do not fly them, but a corpmate specs in Amarr and is quite satisfied with Prophecy.

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Originally by: Lucre

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Originally by: The ArchWarder

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Is the price likley to be changed at all? because right now its like having another fully fitted BS in your cargohold when you go boom.

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This is the killer with using T2 lasers in fleet actions. Rails and projectiles can get away with carrying a couple of hundred shots per gun (or less) so limiting their financial loss if it all goes boom. Laser users are stuck with - as you say - carrying a whole spare (uninsured!) BS in their hold.

Not sure what the solution could be - reduce mineral cost and number of shots by a factor of 5 or 10? And hope the reduced cost works through to the market?

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Originally by: Stephar

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Has anyone considered what nerfing EANM II's would do to people who don't use them to begin with? Or how about reducing EM resists on armor against people who don't use EANM II's+DC combo? There ARE people who don't use EANM II + DC combo in pvp you know. A lot of people who don't use it actually.

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Very good point, and something that needs to be taken into consideration.

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Originally by: Godar Marak

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Uh...sorry if those sounds corny, but why not level armour resistace of all ships to be equal across the board? Meaning ships will have equal amount of resistance in each class now that we have eanII and dc?

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Originally by: Tranklukator's wife

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Give Amarr an option! Any Drone/missle/ecm battleship! Anything but lasers. Or explosive crystals. Or fix resists.

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Originally by: Jin Entres

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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However, some guy forgot to tell Amarr that he is still 10 yards behind.

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No, he was just too proud and self-important to listen to anyone else.

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Originally by: Lickity Split

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Until a Dev response on this subject, the thread must stay on the first page.

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Originally by: Ridjeck Thome

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didnt Tux mention annual leave in his last blog?....nevertheless, I agree...this thread needs to stay on the front page until we get a response...

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Originally by: Sandra Tseng

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Uhm - why? I can just jump into my Apoc, Armageddon, Maller or any other of the Amarr ships I also fly if I want to do EM damage. Makes those Shields whistle ;]

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Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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remove armor EM compensation and shield EXP compensation skills, problem solved (in a part).

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Originally by: Krulla

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Originally by: Zaethiel

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So what do you suggest be done to fix the imbalance with Amarr?

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Nerf EANMII and Amarr are fine.

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Originally by: Frools

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Yes, for a long time now people say "How can a laser miss, Projectiles should miss! L0lzEr!". Why dont we fix this so that amarr have perfect tracking, and only miss due to signature size vs turret resoultion. I for one, would accept perfect tracking in exchange for the gimped damage output.

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that doesnt make any sense, the turret still has to move to track the target its just that it would have to point right at the target instead of leading it
it would certainly be interesting but i think a) a little overpowered b) rather hard to implement
ccp would have to create a whole new turret hit/miss/damage system just for lasers

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Originally by: eLLioTT wave

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After my 2 week conversion to from the apoc to the raven for NPC'ing i can happily tell you it's been well worthwhile. I can easily tank ALL level 4's with a XLbooster, amp and 2 hardners. These are missions i often struggled to tank with 2LAR2, 4 hardners.

I can now also do consistent damage across all NPC types. Where Angel Extrav (thanks CCP for the 0.0 rats you've now included in this mission) used to be a HUGE pain for an apoc, it is a cakewalk for the raven.

I thought, maybe the sansha missions would be a struggle for the raven with high em therm damage, but no, nothing is a challange for this ship.

So, does it seem right to anyone else, that after spending a year and a bit on armor and lasers, and TWO WEEKS on shields and missiles, i can pve BETTER with the 2 week option? (yes engineering and electronics skills carry accross but i cant even use t2 shields and all missiles skills are at level 2 or below (apart from basic req's for cruise missiles)

So right now the only advice i can really give Amarr PVE'rs is: get a raven

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Originally by: Nifel

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Edited by: Nifel on 16/08/2006 09:21:50
OMFG THE RAVEN IS BETTER THAN MY TEMPEST AT NPCING! I DEMAND THE TEMPEST IS MADE BETTER! 7.5% TO ROF AND DAMAGE WOULD DO NICELY KTHXBYE!

MY GRANDMA'S CAR SHOULD ALSO BE UPGRADED TO A FERRARI BECAUSE OF THIS GREAT INJUSTICE!

Jeez...

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Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC

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Because This Game is made By Chinese Communist Productions, there's only one choice, SHUT UP!

The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP!
In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!

Game Made By Chinese Communist Productions

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Originally by: Nifel

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I'll just repeat what Rod Blaine said. Two BoB corps have more than 50% of their pilots piloting Amarr ships the last year if you look at our killboard. That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships...

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Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC

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Because This Game is made By Chinese Communist Productions, there's only one choice, SHUT UP!

The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP!
In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!

Game Made By Chinese Communist Productions

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Past history dictates that unless an issue is brought to the open, nothing gets done about it. Look at the WCS issue. Look at the ECM issue. If the case is made, and the case is justified, then the devs can either take notice and look into the issue, or be looked at in disgrace.

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I still have to see those changes 2 come! Because ECM and WCS are still overpowered, please, read the linked topics.

Game Made By Chinese Communist Productions
The Game, Where The Devs Think They Are VIP!
In other words, We don't Give A VoK about your opinion!

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Originally by: Deathbarrage

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Originally by: Nifel

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I'll just repeat what Rod Blaine said. Two BoB corps have more than 50% of their pilots piloting Amarr ships the last year if you look at our killboard. That's BNC and EVOL. Now obviously we in BoB are so uber we fly around with inferior ships...

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In the last year? Was this before people started using EANMII insted of active hardners? If you look at pretty much any killboard, you will notice the turret ship kills are now starting to get replaced by the arbitrators, curse's, Pilgrims and Projectile Fitted Apocs etc.

People still use zealots and gankageddons, and will still get kills. People can use noobships and get kills. But the point of this thread is that Amarr Turret ships damage output has went down due to EANMII's. Or are you saying that the pilots were lucky enough to engage people who have never heard of EANMII + DC?

Amarr pilots are getting on with it - Changing their weapons. Those that invested SP's in lasers know that their SP has been devalued.

The simple solution is to apply compensation skills to boost active hardners - That way people stop using EANMII's and switch back to Actives. But that is to easy an answer - Insted of a 63page moan from Amarr pilots, you would get a even bigger thread complaining that non-Amarr turret ships are doing less damage.

So why dont you give us a solution insted of not saying anything constructive?

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this won't help he problem, you'd get hardeners that with skills give 80% resistance, this would overpower amarr since it'd be the only race that could still do damage

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Originally by: Saria Mysdrial

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Originally by: DrEiak

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Tell me ONE thing amarr do better then any other race just ONE... that is all i ask.

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Beat Slaves?

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Originally by: Ling Xiao

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Hmm I still have no face, and you still have no dev response. The challenge is still on!

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Originally by: DrEiak

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I have run out of things to say, so I will just quote myself;

"Tell me ONE thing that amarr do better then any other race"

Oh and I did specify not graphically and not ammunition related (which is bull because amarr now use ammo too, and quite possibly the most expensive ammo in the game.)

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Originally by: willie burns

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is there any point of this thread continuing ? i keep hearing about how the devs do a great job and how great the customer service is. no reply yet on this subject i think it was pointed out that most of the devs characters are caldari, how many are amarr ? have they flown amarr recently ? have they tired fitting medium beam lasers on a cruiser and keep some sort of decent tank ? i hope they have, but yet still no response. amarr in its current state are only good for PvE. tanks but no tanks, i'm training for caldari now, they seem to get most of the loving from the devs.

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Originally by: The Armin

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Tier 3's.

Caldari: zomg optimal o0, we can't touch this ship if he has a covop buddy
Gallente: A better blasterboat ? I who thought the blasterthron rocked already.
Minmatar: The ability to restore the most shield ingame.

Looking at all of this, nice ! I'm very glad that my fellow gamers gets a new toy to play with. Though, lets take a look at Amarr(In wich I decided to train \o)

Urr what does Amarr get ? Uh yeah a ship that can do more dps than Geddon. Or tank more than the Apoc. But wth, we didn't need that ! We actually needed something different, not the same as tier1/2, nor a hybrid between the two. A drone boat fine, a dmg and rof bonus fine (but would run outta cap soonish).

I just hope by the time I'm finished specialized in Amarr they'd get boosted by like zomg a lot :P Cause they sux and it aint a secret.

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Originally by: Madcat Adams

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Originally by: Andreask14

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The "classical amarrian design" is simply out-dated so to speak. It either gets some perks or you can burry it alltogether.

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Excellent summation of the current state of Amarr. Why have the devs not responded? There are many useful ideas put forward in this thread, and very real concerns on the behalf of Amarr players. Some critics point to snips of the thread and claim there is nothing substantial here but that is absolutly untrue. Posts such as Andreask14's highlight just how much substance there is. And don't forget, there are seventy one pages now. We aren't asking for Kali to be put on hold while the Amarr problems are solved. Just simply letting us know that you are aware of these matters, and that they will be examined as time allows for balance would go a long way.

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Originally by: Stephar

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Originally by: Tyris Maelstrom

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Though i can understand the need for wanting Kinetic and Explosive dmg types added to Lasers, in a realistic point of view it's impossible. Lasers can't do those dmg types, they don't have the right properties to do so. Sucks I know, I have a Khanid, but that's how it is. You'd almost have to come up with a new weapon type.

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Photons have momentum and kinetic energy. Several named beams are called "particle streams." Particles have wave-like properties, and waves (light) have particle-like properties. I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to say that lasers can do kinetic damage. Besides, all thermal energy is just kinetic energy, which means that all thermal damage is essentially kinetic damage.

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Originally by: Alekzander

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Edited by: Alekzander on 21/09/2006 04:10:59
Would this thread PLEASE JUST DIE. How can you Amarr generate this much garbage? Your putting the minmatar to shame for jeebus sakes. I should pod malkan for making this thread 4 months ago.

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Originally by: Hellspawn01

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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The bottom line is that Amarr is ment to be the king of Turrets, and Caldari the king of Missiles.

Tier3 Caldari is king of Turrets now, so give Amarr a Missile BS and that at least gives variaty.

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But we cant have an amarrian missile boat (1st sacrilege) so we get a 3rd turret ship.

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Originally by: Tassi

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Problem is that amarr have no "hunter" battleship. The abaddon won't be a solo hunting ship either because its not fast and can't run tank + gank like the megathron can.

It will still rock in its role, "stationary" high damage with massive hitpoints. It will just be a better geddon

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Originally by: Madcat Adams

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Wow, 87 pages and still silence from the Devs. It's becoming blatantly apparent that the non response is a response all it's own. Too bad becuase Eve is an increadiable game, and for a time felt like one where the devs cared about everyone. A moment of silence in memory of Tux, the only one that seems to have given a hoot for us Amarrians.

Bring back Tux, or give us someone who will at least acknoweldge that Amarr players exist.

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Originally by: Ituralde

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Boost the Apoc, make it the tier3 bs, then make the Abaddon the torp thing. The ultimate Amarr BS however CANNOT be a missile ship. Tbh the Abaddon certainly does look the part.

Or make the Khanid Navy Abaddon into a torp ship and make the Khanid as they should be - armor tanked missile boats.

Tbh if you want to balance Amarr, make them able to sit and tank yet still unload pain. The abaddon needs to be designed to be able to fit a cap injector, 3 heatsinks, a dual repper tank, and a rack of megabeams IMO. Include extra cpu so it can fit 1-2 tracking computers. Then it can be the ultimate tank boat with the dual repper, eanmII, damage control, 3x active hardener tank that can still decently shoot back, or a more moderate tank with those three slots swapped with heatsinks act as a medium range gank boat.

Balance it by making it move like a brick. It should not however require engineering mods in the lows unless it upgrades the topslots to tachs.

A healthy dronebay would not hurt either, but even just the 75m3 would be acceptable.

Or, yeah, make the Apoc able to do this and upgrade it to the Tier3 by giving it the 8th lowslot and upping its PG and CPU somewhat, and make the Abaddon the tanked missile boat Tier2. Then the Abaddon would have a special cool use, after all, the gallente are getting the uber blasterboat, the Matari are getting the 8-turret slot BS, and the Caldari are getting their wtfsniper rail boat (which is what this whole tier3 battleship thing is really about, lets be honest.)

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Originally by: Godar Marak

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Edited by: Godar Marak on 13/10/2006 04:42:14
I think the stacking hurts Amarr just as much if not more than omni tank.


We used to be able to fit enough damage mods to inflict injury at medium range, out of scramble range. Now people will just go 'pfffft you fire at me I warp off' or close in for the kill inside of your laser range and bbq you.


And as far as cap, that wouldnt have been an issue without the stacking nerf as we used to be able to pwn people before our cap had run dry.

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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5 Months later and you lot are still at it?

Give up, train Minmatar. Its what i did.

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Originally by: Xendie

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but that doesnt mean i wont moan about amarr as much as i can until they either let me respec all my amarr skillpoints or fire tuxford or if he by any divine intervention would happen to actually fix amarr.

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Originally by: Viktor Tessela

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Originally by: ****c

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Nyxus - I agree with your post which has some good ideas.

Althugh I'm sure Tux has seen the Amarr thread (how could he not) and I'd like to believe that work on amarr is happening, some indication that it's happening - some acknowledgement that there is / may be some change required would be very welcome.

After all - if Tux has the time to respond to gallente and caldari threads (four responses in one thread, the first within an hour) he has the time to say "I'll look at it" to the amarr thread - especially given the amount of time and thought that some of the posters have put into their suggestions.

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Well, the problems with Amarr are more fundamental and difficult to solve. I imagine - even if he recognizes that Amarr are in need of some fixing - he'd rather not wade into the thread with a 'Okay, you're right. I have no idea what we're going to do about this, but uh.. working on it.'

For all we know we'll see changes to Amarr-based equip in Kali. It looks like at least some ship changes are going in, after all.

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Originally by: Trance Gemmini

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I hope the Abaddon is an 8/5/7 with a 125 m3 drone bay..

I could then happily live with my EM skewed pew pew pew.

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Originally by: Ituralde

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Edited by: Ituralde on 22/10/2006 19:33:10
Compare the light of mass and the mass of a charge of Iron 425mm in diamater and get back to me mmkay?

[Edit] - Point out where in the post you quoted where I insulted the devs in any way? I simply meant to refute the argument that in any way, shape, or form we (amarr) need to be able to do kinetic or explosive damage. Be high and mighty all you want but tbh I don't see how I am being non-constructive as the cap use in light of the announced HP change is a serious issue.

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Originally by: Gabriel Karade

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Originally by: Uglyone

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w00t at 100 pages long this thread stands for Tuxfords incompetence.

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80% of this thread is useless spam and stupid personal attacks such as the one above.

What does this thread show? that the forums are full of childish idiots.

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